I have just one question

I'm with you (4.00 / 1)

I admit this is a high-stakes gamble by McCain that could turn out to be brilliant.  But I think the odds are in our favor.

Repeating one of my comments on Sporer:

"Why did McCain go with Palin? My suspicion is that McCain crapped his pants last night listening to Obama lay out his strong case against the McCain-Bush agenda and realized he needed to shake things up. The online pics I've seen of the Ohio event, I did not see a single McCain-Palin sign. That could indicate a last minute change."

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by: RF @ Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 15:11:08 PM CDT

Palin and Clinton (4.00 / 2)

I do not believe Hillary supporters will flock to McCain, but this is stirring up emotions for some of us who really thought we were past the party unity question. There will be a few Hillary supporters who will vote McCain/Palin...though I belive that many of them voted for Hillary because they were against Obama to begin with. And you can be sure that the news media will absolutely jump on any they find.

I believe that Hillary will need to get out there and reinforce the message that she is supporting Obama even more now. I hope that Obama is smart enough to use her.

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by: lorih @ Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 15:23:02 PM CDT

Don't worry, (0.00 / 0)

stirring up emotions

the news media will absolutely jump on any they find.

It's only a matter of time before we'll be re-living Primary '08: Return of the Low-Info Voters.

I believe that Hillary will need to

Respectfully, I can't agree with this. It only underscores that she wasn't picked.

Second, I've sensed for a while now that there is some sort of pre-emptive scapegoating of Clinton supporters and the former candidate going on, and personally, I'm quite tired of it. Did you work for her campaign? Did you meet Stephanie Tubbs Jones? The day after she passed away unexpectedly, the NYT had a 'review' of Clinton's campaigning efforts -- apparently too few cartwheels and not perky enough. Yep, I'm always rah-rah the day after someone dear to me passes. I'm wearied by the obsessive monitoring over her every facial tic.

Quite frankly, the unctuous demands that Clinton/Clinton supporters MUST DO X,Y leave me flummoxed. Here's the way I see it -- let's pretend that McCain's VP pick has absolutely no positive attributes. Let's say that the conservative base does not unite around her, and further, rural/small-town voters reject her by the score.

There is still something the GOP gets out of this. I think they studied our primary very carefully. Now ... who is it that depends on women voters/turnout? Uhm, that would be the Democrats. Remember, when women vote, Democrats win!

Next, I apply a simple formula:

(Working moms + PTA + beauty queen wanna-be's + age 35+ pregnancies + graduates of 'no-name' colleges) >> prosperous burghers.

After a quick review of the pundits, MSM and blogs, I find that there is nothing that I, former HRC supporter, can do to stem the tide. I've learned in just a few hours:

1. Women with children can't do the 'tough' jobs
2. McCain is an old man who fell for a beauty queen
3. She's a bimbo
4. Amniocentesis -> a sure sign that she was planning an abortion!
5. p#rn star

and so on.

I'm not Sisyphus. I just don't have the energy to work against this tide! Spew on, people (not you guys) -> at this point, the worst-case scenario for the GOP is depressed turnout by women. That could be their minimum goal with this pick. That's all you're going to get by simultaneously pinning this on Hillary while trashing Palin on gender-related issues. Women will stay home. Talk about eating your seed corn!

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by: ragbrai08 @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 06:24:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I do think that some people (0.00 / 0)

are laying the groundwork for blaming Hillary if Obama loses. I agree with you that this is outrageous.

But I think the Palin pick will turn out to be a disaster for McCain. He's destroyed his best talking point against Obama. Also, she is not some abstract combination of a working mom who had a baby past age 35, etc. Already we are seeing reports on how she and her husband have abused the power of her office to get revenge on people they don't like. Talk about continuity with the Bush administration!

Invite other Iowa political junkies to join us at Bleeding Heartland.

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by: desmoinesdem @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 08:21:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Emotions (4.00 / 2)

I was very emotional yesterday about this. Tuesday I watched Hillary's speech and was truly starting to get more enthusiastic about working for Obama. Thursday I saw Obama's speech and continued to make peace and acceptance about him as the nominee and with him not Picking Hillary as his VP. Friday McCain picks a woman running mate and I get angry all over again. Mad at Obama for not picking Hillary and mad at McCain for trying to manipulate me into voting for him. Today I'm still angry at McCain, but I'm again ready to go out and work for Obama.

Women's rights are a big deal for me. I work in a male dominated profession and I know that sexism isn't dead. I experience it all the time. But I'm not about to vote for a token. McCain skipped the vote on equal pay for equal work. Obama and Biden both voted for it. I do believe that any attacks on Palin implying that she is a simply a token would be better coming from a woman surrogate than from Obama or Biden. If not Hillary, then maybe Michelle.

I'm not as worried as I was yesterday either. If women all voted as a block for any woman candidate then we would have had a woman president in 1972 or whenever it was that the first woman ran.  

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by: lorih @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 09:39:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

So do I (0.00 / 0)

I work in a male dominated profession

of course, you could just call politics a male-dominated profession :-)

But I'm not about to vote for a token

I'm still learning about her. I don't pretend to know anything about her or 'frontier politics.' Based on what I've read thus far, I'm not sure I'd call her a token. She has an interesting list of accomplishments on energy issues for her short tenure as Gov. She's appointed a state-level SCJ, which is more than any of the others on the tickets have done.

I am sure I disagree strongly on many environmental issues, which is far more likely to be the basis for her not getting my vote.

I don't think the goal is Dem Hillary voters. I was talking to a friend this morning who was explaining the career path, if you will, of R-leaning women seeking public office in western states. It starts with the PTA.

I've spent an above average amount of time in small towns this year, in IA, PA, even MD. I would say that esp in places like PA, Palin has a lot of appeal. Many who voted Hillary had to change party registration from Unaffiliated/No Party to Democrat in order to participate. That's why I don't describe them as partisan Dem Hillary voters.

I'm not mad at McCain. Politicians pander, period. If our various levels of govt were representative of the American electorate, we would largely be focused on issues and most of this discussion would be moot.

I am irritated with the predictable path taken to denigrate her and this undue emphasis on Hillary/Hillary voters.  

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by: ragbrai08 @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 18:38:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I probably spoke too soon (0.00 / 0)

about her being a token. I'm still not sure he would have picked her if she wasn't a woman...after all there are plenty of republican males who are pro-life; some from bigger states who might be able to deliver more electoral votes.

It really was a surprise and in my self-centeredness I assumed he was going for my demographic, though that may not be the case at all. I know that there are some on-line Hillary voters who are thrilled and trying to justify her pro-life stance. However, as we all know that on-line two people can seem like a dozen and a dozen can seem like hundreds.  

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by: lorih @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 22:43:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The online ppl (4.00 / 1)

strike me as publicity hounds. IRL, the HRC supporters I know are more thoughtful.

I think the issue is very complex for HRC supporters. The truth is that the question of what constitutes 'experience' was central to the primary. When Ferraro made her injudicious remarks, we cringed b/c she came dangerously close to calling BO a token. Some people interpreted her remarks to mean just that.

If we accept our nominee, we're also accepting  a non-traditional interpretation of what constitutes the 'right' experience. The Obama campaign itself has stressed biography, potential and inspiration over traditional politico experience. I'm fine with that. However, Palin is doing the same thing. I agree that her gender is a value-added proposition for McCain, but we've also trumpeted historic firsts, so it's a draw. Like I said above, that extra 'bump' that comes from challenging barriers wouldn't be an issue if the pace of inclusion would pick up a bit.

Here is the problem. I have read enough over a broad range of sources to come to some preliminary conclusions. There is no doubt that her rise through the ranks has been quite rapid, perhaps prematurely (that remains to be seen). However, she has a legitimate claim to the reform mantle and a strong portfolio on energy issues at the expense of other issues like foreign policy. She has accomplishments, but over a short period of time, so one is back to the promise/potential thing.

Now I'm seeing or hearing former HRC surrogates with messages that I should feel "insulted" or worse, "she's a good mommy but absolutely, grotesquely unqualified."

1. I don't need to be told how I should feel. Of course it sucks that old white men just happen to find 'promising' women when it suits their overall agenda -- but guess what? I'll take it! I'm not insulted at all. It is less than optimal that this happens to be the opposition party, but the good news is that it will force both parties to be more inclusive in the future. More, please. LOL, I never tripped over my shoelaces in excitement thinking that Hillary had returned.

2. I said I worked in a male-dominated field -- actually, to be more specific, I run my own business, thus compete in a male-dominated field. If Democrats choose to go down the road of snide implications that she should be at home with the kids (two are adults), or making these blanket assertions of 'no experience,' well, I literally can't afford to go down this road with them. These are tired old tropes.

No, she's not for us. She mentioned Hillary at some event yesterday, and there was some audible booing. The place was  not packed w/ Hillary-loving Dems! Second, she went shopping w/ a daughter for a cheerleader outfit right after the VP rollout. In the 'professional' world, evidence of multitasking/family responsibilities means you might not get trusted with meeting a deliverable deadline, so all that gets suppressed except for a few acceptable outlets (screensavers, desk pics, social functions). That's small town stuff, where the kids are seen milling around the shop, diner, etc.

It seems to me that if she's an overhyped incompetent, she'll be a disaster on the national stage. She will also have to reveal her policy positions for the record during speeches, interviews and debate. She is also linked to the top of the GOP ticket, McCain. The chances of my overlooking all that in favor of gender are slim to none. OTOH, if her mere presence invites more bashing of former HRC supporters, or if double-standards are invoked, or if stereotypes are invoked that limit women's roles in society, then I'm in a bind because it becomes a matter of self-preservation.

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by: ragbrai08 @ Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 11:27:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You know, (0.00 / 0)

I saw a headline at Huffington Post yesterday that said: Palin, You're no Hillary Clinton. My first thought was that they were endorsing Palin.

laying the groundwork for blaming Hillary if Obama loses.

I view it as the self-immolation of the D-party, more or less.  I wish people would get a little smarter about this.

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by: ragbrai08 @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 18:57:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Amen (4.00 / 1)

CNN airs stories with headlines like "McCain Attacks Obama Using Hillary's Playbook"  or "Hillary provides 'Road Map' for the McCain Campaign".

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/08/20/ac.strategy.session.cnn?iref=videosearch

..as though, prior to Hillary, no one could see any of these flaws with Senator Obama.  That if she hadn't pointed out these issues, Senator McCain would never have thought of these himself... just lovely.

I would like to know if anyone really believes this?  

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by: johnnyschad @ Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 19:08:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Palin is under investigation by an independant (4.00 / 1)

investigator for her role in... (drum-role, please)... Illegal firings : )

There couldnt be a better mirror image of President Bush if you tried for one. McCain is very desperate.

"Governor Palin is currently under investigation by an independent investigator hired by the legislature to determine if she abused her power when firing Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan. On July 11, 2008, Palin dismissed Walter Monegan as Commissioner of Public Safety and instead offered him a position as executive director of the state Alcoholic Beverage Control Board, which he subsequently turned down. The Commisioner serves at the will of the governor, so her right to fire him is not in dispute; but Monegan alleged shortly after his dismissal that it may have been partly due to his reluctance to fire an Alaska State Trooper, Mike Wooten, who had been involved in a divorce and child. custody battle with Palin's sister, Molly McCann"

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by: baldy08 @ Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 15:41:10 PM CDT

Court of Public Opinion (4.00 / 1)

I had discounted Palin's chances based on this scandal, but the more I read about it...the more I think it's a non-issue.

The trooper in question was such a total ass (and that is putting it mildly) I quote the Anchorage Daily News (links on request):

Troopers eventually investigated 13 issues and found four in which Wooten violated policy or broke the law or both:

Wooten used a Taser on his stepson.

He illegally shot a moose.

He drank beer in his patrol car on one occasion.

He told others his father-in-law would "eat a f'ing lead bullet" if he helped his daughter get an attorney for the divorce.

Beyond the investigation sparked by the family, trooper commanders saw cause to discipline or give written instructions to correct Wooten seven times since he joined the force, according to Grimes' letter to Wooten.

For all this, Trooper Wooten was suspended for 10 days--reduced to 5 days by the police union. Palin and/or her staff then (allegedly) asked the Public Safety Comissioner to fire the trooper--he refused and was sacked. The Comissioner serves at the governor's pleasure, so can be fired in this way completely legally.

There are some rough edges to this, some places where things get shady, but that's the rough outline of it. The court of public opinion will fall totally in Palin's favor on this. It's a non-issue--and could even hurt in the long run if the McCain camp is allowed to frame it.

We need to hit Palin on other things--this isn't the killer issue. It could even positively reinforce her "white knight" reformer image if she is vindicated or only mildly reprimanded in the investigation.

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by: American007 @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 07:40:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

absolutely agree (4.00 / 1)

You're not going to find much sympathy for this trooper. Quite the opposite.

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by: ragbrai08 @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 18:43:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

polls (0.00 / 0)

The first of what I'm sure will be many polls about Palin has been done.

One key thing they said:

Among Democratic women - including those who may be disappointed that New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton did not win the Democratic nomination - 9% say Palin makes them more likely to support McCain, 15% less likely.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/p...

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by: lorih @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:57:41 PM CDT

Good! (0.00 / 0)

Let's move on from Hillary Democrats to independents/R-leaners.

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by: ragbrai08 @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 18:59:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Birthday (0.00 / 0)

It was McCains birthday.  He is 72 years old.  He is older than Reagan.  Just to remind you in his college class he wa 894 out of a class of 899.  He is older than Reagan and as dumb as Bush

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by: keith nichols @ Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 01:12:42 AM CDT

Definitely a risk; but he's the maverick. (0.00 / 0)

My thoughts on Palin are that it's a really smart choice for McCain. Virtually anything anyone says about her comes back to slap Dems in the face.

A- "She's too inexperienced".  Oh really?  Well, she's our #2 on the ticket... let's look at your #1.

B- "She's putting her family in the backseat to run for office."  Oh really?  Do you mean to suggest, feminist-agenda libs, that you can't do it all?  

C- "She's got a special needs child that she should take care of."  She IS taking care of him.  She chose not to kill him.  Clearly, she's got his best interest in mind.

D- "What about her daughters that need her?"  What could be more inspiring and instructional than to watch their mom be all that she can be?

E- "She's got no foreign policy experience".  See response to A.

F- "She's a backwoods redneck with a gun."  Forget middle American votes... which is what has last the last few elections for the Dems.

I think it's a politically brilliant choice.  Brilliant.  For McCain.  For virtually anyone else, it doesn't make sense.  But for the maverick McCain who has never gone with the party establishment, it's a really smart choice.  It invigorates the base.  It unabashedly SCREAMS pro-life, which will please the majority of evangelicals.  It's young and fresh, which will grab the middle-of-the-road Republicans who were yawning about McCain.  It's politically brilliant.

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by: MakingHome @ Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 11:57:05 AM CDT

we shall see (0.00 / 0)

I think this will backfire hugely as people get to know her.

A lot of Republicans are not happy that more qualified men were passed over. They will be waiting for her to slip up.

I am surprised that you have no problem with her traveling to Texas late in a high-risk pregnancy, then getting on a plane back to Alaska after her water broke. And in general, I thought you disapproved of women pursuing a career while they have small children at home.

But it will be an interesting race...

Invite other Iowa political junkies to join us at Bleeding Heartland.

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by: desmoinesdem @ Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 12:32:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why would my personal convictions for my life have to do with her? (0.00 / 0)

I'm not her doctor, and I'm not her judge.  If you're looking for people who are sitting in that latter position, visit Generation Cedar (hosted by blogspot) or Ladies Against Feminism.  Some bloggers are very put out by this choice.  I am not among them.

It will indeed be an interesting race.

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by: MakingHome @ Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 12:41:58 PM CDT

I agree (0.00 / 0)

It will be an interesting race. I'm still voting for Obama of course, but I'm thrilled that women's issues will not be dropped now that Clinton is out of the race. On the contrary, I expect that both sides will continue to compete for our votes and I am thrilled about that.

I would expect the thing for Democrats to do would be not to attack Palin at all. Rather it would be much better to focus on McCain's failure to vote for equal pay for women, and to continue to focus on other things that are particularly important to women such as health care, etc.  

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by: lorih @ Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 13:47:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

absolutely, Dems should ignore Palin (0.00 / 0)

Attacking her will only make her into a victim.

Let her reveal herself to be totally unqualified for this job. Dan Quayle had way more experience than she does, and George H.W. Bush was eight years younger in 1988 than McCain is now.

As I've written before, I don't think McCain had any great options for VP. This wasn't one of his least-bad options, though. I think he will regret this one.

Invite other Iowa political junkies to join us at Bleeding Heartland.

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by: desmoinesdem @ Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 17:16:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

but now I'm confused (0.00 / 0)

because I thought that in your view, people like Palin are supposed to set an example for younger Christian women.  

Invite other Iowa political junkies to join us at Bleeding Heartland.

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by: desmoinesdem @ Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 17:17:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You shouldn't be confused (4.00 / 1)

Or perhaps you should be if you think my goal is to teach older women.  I try to learn all I can from older women, and teach younger women as I've been taught to do.  Each woman has things she does well and obeys well and areas where she's growing.  For some women, they get to age 45 and wish they'd had more children (being fruitful and multiplying).  Others get to that age and wish they'd never denied their husband intimacy (1 Cor 7).  Others get to that age and wish they'd read more of their Bible and known God more.  Others get to that age and feel convicted about gluttony.  We all have different paths we're on.

I'm not accountable to God for what Palin does or doesn't do.  I think she's a remarkable admirable woman in the things that she DOES do.  For articles about some other evangelicals who ARE excited about Palin, check out these links:

http://www.dougwils.com/Print....

http://ap.google.com/article/A...

Maybe this will clear up the confusion.  For the record, I don't plan on posting anything about it until I know more about her.  I think almost anyone who has written much about her (particularly those over-the-top FOR, or over-the-top AGAINST) really has jumped the gun.  It's only been 72 hours or so.  I think self-control is a virtue in situations like this, when you don't know about someone.  This next week will be a good time for America to be introduced to Palin and even by next weekend, surely some more thoughtful articles will be written instead of the knee-jerk reaction stuff that's been put out thus far.

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by: MakingHome @ Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:16:32 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

it is probably wise to refrain from posting (0.00 / 0)

until more is known. I didn't realize until yesterday that some circumstantial evidence suggests Palin's fifth child, Trig, is actually her grandchild (teenage daughter Bristol's child). That would explain a lot, such as why she flew to Texas late in a high-risk pregnancy, why she got on an airplane to Alaska supposedly after her water broke, why she was back in the office three days after giving birth, and why Palin's 17-year-old daughter seems to be the primary caregiver for the baby. Also, the daughter missed most of the past academic year, supposedly because she had mononucleosis:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo...

One of my college roommates had a younger sister who was actually her niece (older sister's baby). I think this is done in quite a few families to avoid going public about a teenager getting pregnant.

Invite other Iowa political junkies to join us at Bleeding Heartland.

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by: desmoinesdem @ Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 06:29:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I can't believe you're perpetuating this smut. (0.00 / 0)

Did you watch the video?  She was waddling.  There is much, MUCH circumstantial evidence that she was indeed pregnant.  Don't stoop to this level, dmd.  Just cause the kos reports it definitely does NOT make it true.

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by: MakingHome @ Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 09:02:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]